July 4, 2012 — 12:50

Author: Jeremy Gwiazda  Category: Uncategorized  Comments: 16

Jack loves Jill and Jill hates Jack. They both go to heaven. Do they meet?

  • I should think that they definitely meet. But whether they remain together, is rather doubtful.
    Remember that our spiritual soul is based on loves, in particular the principal love that motivates all the others. The question about Jill, then, is whether her hate of Jack can be removed (or not) without changing her deepest principal love.

    July 4, 2012 — 14:07
  • I presume that, in heaven, Jill won’t hate Jack any more. So…yes?

    July 4, 2012 — 15:14
  • Kyle

    Yes, but only because anything follows from a contradiction. If they are both in heaven and united to God in love, then they cannot hate each other.

    July 4, 2012 — 21:24
  • DL

    Well, if Jill actually hated Jack, then she wouldn’t have gone to heaven. So I’ll suppose that more accurately the case is something like: Jill intensely dislikes Jack’s company. Perhaps Jack has many personality flaws that make him intolerable to be around. But once he reaches Heaven, he won’t have any flaws.
    Conversely, if Jack truly loves Jill, then he wants whatever is best for her. If it’s best that she not meet him, then he won’t want to meet her. In any case, the difficulty posed is something that can happen only because of our fallen nature, which in Heaven will be restored to its proper state (and beyond).

    July 4, 2012 — 22:27
  • S. Kajimura

    Good metaphysical question that there is no answer to, because in order to answer this there has to be certainty to questions such as: What is Heaven? Does it exist? What is it like? If we cannot provide certainty of Heaven, the bedrock foundation of the question, we cannot answer it. DL tried to provide an answer, but it is just a mere subjective assumption. “Certainty is objective”-Wittgenstein.

    July 5, 2012 — 1:11
  • I’m with DL on the basic point. Jill won’t get into heaven as long as she hates Jack. God may have to cleanse her directly of her hatred or send her to purgatory until she loves Jack.
    But there is still a paradox in the vicinity. Suppose that Jack wants to spend a lot of time in Jill’s company and Jill wants to spend only a little time in Jack’s company, and suppose that given their personalities, this allotment is best. Because each loves the other and wants what is best for the other, then Jack will strive to spend only a little time in Jill’s company, for Jill’s sake, while Jill will strive to spend a lot of time in Jack’s company, for Jack’s sake.
    Maybe the answer is that nobody in heaven has a desire like only send a little time in x’s company. After all, everyone in heaven loves everyone else in heaven and enjoys their company. So the only reason to spend less time in x’s company would be to spend more time in y’s company. But there is unlimited time in heaven, and the saints have the virtue of patience developed to a high degree.
    Moreover, maybe the saints in heaven have control over their subjective time and, to boot, are capable of bilocation. Thus, maybe spending time with x does not limit one’s time spent with y even in the short run.
    But perhaps an even better resolution is that our desires in heaven will conform to those desires that God intends for us to have. And God intends for the saints a set of desires that, while having individual differences, has no incompatibilities. There is a submission to God in one’s desires. If God wants Jack to spend lots of time with Jill, Jack will sincerely and wholeheartedly want to do that, out of love for God.

    July 5, 2012 — 8:45
  • Scott

    Why assume that all of one’s desires are satisfied in heaven? A standard combination of theological views holds that God wants all to be saved but not all will be saved. So God will be in heaven but He will have a desire that is not satisfied. Why not say the same thing about us? Heaven is a great good. But its inhabitants are not guaranteed to have all their desires satisfied.

    July 5, 2012 — 13:56
  • John Alexander

    Let us complicate things. Jack, Jill, Bill and Mary are all friends. Jack loves Jill but Jill loves Bill. However, because of their marriage vows, Jill has convinced Jack that she loves him and will not leave him. Bill knows that Jill loves him, but will remain faithful to Jack so he has turned his affection to Mary and now loves her. Mary does not know that Bill loves her and, in fact, she secretly loves Jack, but will not let Jack know because of her friendhip for Jill. They all die in a car accident and go to Heaven. What will their relationship with each other be like?

    July 5, 2012 — 18:45
  • Jeremy Gwiazda

    It does seem to me that if the move is to rule out contradictory desires, then there are serious questions about personal identity, and whether person P is still person P. Is there standard literature on this topic? I’m familiar with some of the literature on Heaven and free will, but less so on Heaven and personal identity.

    July 6, 2012 — 10:01
  • On the issue of removing contradictory desires, we may specify that, say, before converting to Christianity, Jack committed atrocities to Jill and her family, and for that reason she does not want to even think about him again – the very memories of their ordeal haunt her.
    If she meets Jack in Heaven, it seems to me that her mind would have to be very seriously altered, else she would be devastated (which wouldn’t happen in heaven).
    But then again, wouldn’t something like Heaven require huge mental alterations in all cases anyway, including suppression of desires in nearly all if not all cases?
    For instance, would sexual desires in Heaven be completely suppressed?
    If so, that would be a very significant mental alteration including suppression of desires, in most cases at least.
    If not, still, would sexual desires in Heaven towards anyone but one’s last spouse be completely suppressed, including sexual desires towards previous spouses who died earlier in cases when it applies?
    If so, that would be a very significant mental alteration including suppression of desires, in most cases at least.
    If not, then would there be desires to engage in behaviors like having sex with someone who isn’t one’s spouse?

    July 6, 2012 — 17:52
  • John Alexander

    Jeremy: why think that we would be, or could be, different in Heaven then we were on earth? Isn’t going to Heaven like joining a club? I assume that in order to get into Heaven one must possess the virtuous characteristics that are required for membership. If that is the case the we would be the same – we are who we are.

    July 7, 2012 — 9:31
  • Jeremy Gwiazda

    Rereading these responses, I have to admit that, I am getting more confused (likely because I have not thought about the matter). But how is Heaven then not the worst of Brave New World and Nozick’s Experience Machine (and whatever else you want to add along these lines) thrown together? Is the idea that Nozick’s Experience Machine becomes great if the designer of it is good (powerful, etc) enough? Or is the idea more that the machine is not real, but the experience of Heaven is? (And if so, is there a definition of ‘real’ that makes this divide clear?)
    John: I think my concern is becoming less, ‘How do we know that person B is still person B?’ and more, ‘Why are we calling these things persons at all?’ (Less, is Billy Martin in Heaven Billy Martin?, and more, that’s not a person.

    July 9, 2012 — 18:59
  • Jeremy,
    I was just pointing out what appear to be some of the consequences, in terms of some of the psychological modifications Heaven appears to require.
    Personally, I don’t believe in Heaven, and I do not find the Christian Heaven – including the prospect of the aforementioned modifications* – appealing at all (though it’s far better than Hell, for sure), but of course, Christians disagree with my take on that.
    * Not that I would go to the Christian Heaven, but enough modifications would result in a mind that would enjoy it.

    July 10, 2012 — 0:01
  • Cian

    Re: “But perhaps an even better resolution is that our desires in heaven will conform to those desires that God intends for us to have.”
    What an undesirable state of affairs that would be!

    July 16, 2012 — 15:48
  • Dr. Rizz

    It seems to me that part of becoming a fully-actuated human being is to gain a reasonable perspective on the incompatibility of various persons’ legitimate desires, the equality of value of all persons desires of the same type, and the need to compromise given the potential for conflict. I don’t see why appreciating everyone’s various personality traits would be a requirement for human perfection. Hence, I think the resolution of the various paradoxes presented here involve distinguishing between the lower level dissatisfactions that are attached to the frustration of specific desires and the higher order capacities to both understand how and why the conflicts arose and yet retain fundamental joy at the overall quality of one’s state of existence.

    July 18, 2012 — 12:46
  • Ali

    Because Jack Loves Jill, He is not the reason for them to be separated in the Heaven. Thus we just discuss Jill.
    For simplicity suppose that Jill is an Element that can not mix up with jack in a certain environment(this world) because of Quality of one of her present feelings (her hate for Jack). By this we mean if Jack is present, Jill will not be present. So when it happens that they are both existing in the same environment (the Heaven), then Jill should have lost her past Feeling. Supposedly Jill lost her hate. Hence they will meet in the heaven, because Jill doesn’t retain that quality anymore. Happily ever after!

    September 21, 2012 — 12:36
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